Differences between high end ESC's and cheap ones for Lehner motors?

[dmitry100]

Hey guys,

I keep reading about how high-end controllers like MGM and Schulze are "optimized" to work with Lehner motors (I'm assuming this is software wise) compared to the castle controllers and the cheap chinese ones.

Can anyone elaborate a little more about this?

Thinking about pulling the trigger on a set of MGM 28026-3's... Just wondering if it's over rated or if I should just stick to my supped up china controllers.

[RaceMechaniX]

Schulze and Lehner go way back and likely work well together due to their geographic location both being in Germany.
MGM decided to pair their controllers with the highest quality motors available in Europe. Hence it was also a good alliance.
MGM controllers and Schulze's do not always work well with all motors, more specifically the 1D and 0.5Y.

The reason Lehner's are one of the "easiest" motors to drive from a controller perspective is the stator wind design and rotor design. They produce a very clean sinusoidal voltage pattern which allows it easier to pick up rotor position and apply current to yield torque.

LMT's are 2-pole motors compared to most Neu, TP and Leopards are 4-pole or higher. A 4-pole motor runs twice as fast compared to a 2-pole motor from the controller perspective even though they both are running at the same RPM. Higher apparent speeds usually tax the processor higher and sometimes require higher switching frequencies. Most of the heat in a controller is a result of the switching losses in the FET's, hence higher pole count motors with higher frequencies will lead to higher heat in the controller.

Don't just assume a MGM will be the golden ticket. They work great with some motors. They also have a lot of safety protection built in which makes them less likely to fail, but also means they pull back power where others will push on.

The best all around controller is a converted Castle ICE controller. If you add enough water cooling to these they can drive any motor with relative ease.

[dmitry100]

How many amps are you able to pull with a Castle ICE (with enough water cooling) ?

I've spoke with the MGM guys at one point and they mentioned that they would be able to upload a custom firmware that would turn off all limits.

Is this the specific one you are talking about?

phoenix-ice-200.jpg

[StevenBryant]

Tyler are the Edge 200 esc any good or is it only the ICE unit that are worth converting?


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[RaceMechaniX]

With good cooling mods and by that I mean directly attaching copper or brass to the bus bars at least on one side you can expect 250A continuous and 350A peaks. If you apply four cooling tubes to both sides of the bus bars you can expect better performance and longevity.

@Dmitry100, yes it is that ESC with the heat sinks removed and brass tubes soldered on. MGM will likely not sell you a "unlocked" ESC. I know they say they are willing to do that, but only for a select few racers who have established a good relationship with them. The reason for this is simple, if you remove the safety limits and burn up the ESC and boat they don't want people publishing bad press online and to the community. I can't fault them there.

@ Steven, yes they are great ESC's when converted to direct cooling and conformal coated.

-Tyler

[Jamey]

Hey Tyler, maybe this is a really dumb question but would you think the castle edge 160 HV actually does have less amp carrying ability than the 200 8s version? Just thinking they may have derated to keep the total watts lower. I have never seen the two side by side to compare. I am really considering the 160HV for an 8s boat just for the future flexibility and I like that it is less expensive and non-bec.

[StevenBryant]

Thanks Tyler, I am building an 8s rigger for abit of fun not racing with a Lehner 2280/5 in a 41” tub, do you think the castle edge converted will handle the motor or will I need 300+ amps.
Cheers


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[RaceMechaniX]

Jamey, the 160HV's are not nearly as capable as the 200's. In the 160's they use a higher voltage switch with less current rating hence the lower overall rating of 160A. It would seem straight forward that the HV performance should scale at some reasonable factor relative to the LV's, but testing and a lot of users would suggest that design is not as robust. Maybe they have improved it with the Edge series, but I can't say from personal experience. I am still running the ICE series.

If you buy the ICE 200 with heat sinks, they will run 8S. I would go that route first and convert it to water cooling unless you have aspirations of running higher voltages.

Steven,
I know the the 2280/5 very well and it will pull a lot of amps if not careful. It's one motor I still only run with Schulze's and I have to add water cooling plates in addition to the cooling on the board. At best I would say it's marginal with the Castle although I run mine in a mono on 2P, where as a hydro with less weight and appropriate prop will not be as bad. I would opt for adding all four cooling tubes, top and bottom of each bus bar like this one.
IMG_1192.JPG

[StevenBryant]

Tyler instead of the castle, which schulze controller would you use, 40.160? Do you have any pictures of the added cooling plates? What about the MGM esc’s is there one you would recommend to use? Cheers


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[RaceMechaniX]

I use the 32.200, 32.202, 40.160 and 40.161. All have been upgraded with additional capacitors.
I do not have any pics of the cooling plates. These are something I machined a while ago. I do have a drawing if you wanted to machine some for yourself.

If you are running a Lehner, then yes I would recommend the 28026 for Q and the 25035 for S. These work better than the larger footprint versions like the 25063 and 40063.


Click here:

Schulze 40.160wk chill plate.pdf

[StevenBryant]

Thanks Tyler great info as always just one last question, would the TMM 25035-3 be capable of running a 2280/5 Lehner? I’ve been offered a pair of schulze 40.160wk but at a €1000 Euro for both, I’m considering them however the MGM unit is a 3rd of the price.


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[StevenBryant]

. This is one of the controllers


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[RaceMechaniX]

Steven,
I do not think a 25035 is going to run a 2280. It can run a 2250 and maybe a 2260, but not a 2280. The MGM's have very honest current limits and the 2280 will go above 300A easily.

The controller you have shown is going to result in failures. Because the newer Schulze's have a built in anti-spark on the battery leads and you have additional caps on the leads, this will cause the caps on the caps on the board to fight the caps externally. You really want all the caps on the board for the newer ESC's from Schulze. On the older ones with no anti-spark, it is OK to add them to the battery leads.

I failed a several newer 40.160WK's trying to use an external cap bank till Matthias and I worked out that it was the high in rush current coming from the external cap bank that blew the leads off the internal caps.

These are how I upgrade my newer controllers today. Stock one on the left, modified on the right.

IMG_0049.jpgIMG_0056.jpgIMG_0115.jpg

[StevenBryant]

Wow that’s a lot of caps, I’m glad I asked you before buying these controllers, are the newer controllers worth spending money on and then modifying by adding extra caps to the board or should I look for a different controller? If a different controller which one would you recommend?


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[RaceMechaniX]

That is a little expensive for the newer controllers, but it's supply vs demand. If you did buy them, I would remove the external caps and add the same quantity directly on the board like I have shown.
Controllers for a 2280 are very limited because you need a true 300A+ continuous rated controller. A 40063 MGM would be the next option, but its price is close to the two Schulze's.