another neu vs lehner vs tp motor discussion.

[pond skipper]

So I have been doing a little researching for the correct motor combo for an HPR-99 Ultimate layup build on 6s I am getting ready to start on and the motors I landed on are:

lehner 1950 2090kv/3000 watt
neu 1518 2340kv/3000 watt
tp 4050 2200 kv/3200 watt

My goal is not for run time obviously especially on 6s, but to see just how fast I can push this thing and keep it on the water. The question being which will honestly be the best, I have no experience with Lehner or TP motors at all, on the surface looking at the charts they are all relatively close in performance and not terribly far off from each other in kv and watt output which can be adjusted for in prop size, the biggest difference I've found is in the price tag unless I'm really missing something.

the lehner setup the way I would want would be $400+ per motor
the neu would come in around $250 each
and the tp I could get both motors for the price of one neu and they will come with a cooling jacket

my question is is there any more performance to be had from the more expensive motors honestly? I am positive they are all 3 over 90% efficient so is there really a need to spend the extra coin or is it just to say you are running the best of the best for bragging rites at the pond?

mind you whichever will yield the highest top speed and longest life will ultimately be what I go with regardless of the price tag. So fire away, I'm all ears.

[Fluid]

SAW racers already know the answer - if you are looking for a record, you will not beat a Neu with a TP using the same setup. Records have been set with budget motors but they don't last long.

For the average sport boater, the difference may be hard to tell. I do know that a TP is far less efficient than a Lehner or Neu - the heat in the motor will tell you that. If the top speed is limited by power (it often is not) then the more efficient motor will have a higher output and higher speed. The magnets in the high end motors will survive overheating better than the budget motors, and the windings are less likely to short out. But for most boaters the price point is the main decision-influencing factor. Lots of folks spend a lot of time and bandwidth rationalizing their choice of a budget motor over a high end motor. The facts of motor power output are clear.


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[kfxguy]

I've done a lot of going back and forth. I've come to the conclusion that tp is a good motor. It is, especially for the price but they don't quite stack up to a neu. Neu is my pick if I'm trying to get the highest speed and still survive multiple runs. A tp will do it, but won't survive like a neu will. This is just my personal experience including people close to me running also. I've had limited experience with Lehner. Unfortunately my experiences weren't the best. They did perform very well (not twice the cost as a neu good tho) but didn't last for me. I haven't had a neu failure (yet). I had one (the first one I ever bought, brand new) Lehner fail in in my mono. Then another in a build I did for a buddy. He did abuse his somewhat but he's abused his tp's and neus the same way and hasn't had a failure with any tp and only one neu that I know of. I did not abuse mine. Now for a comparison:


I had a 34" mono. 2260 1677kv Lehner (in my opinion a very powerful motor that was comparable to a 1527 neu)
This setup ran a max of 91.2mph with a pretty decent amount of tuning. (What I mean by that is I had weeks of tuning time into it, so it was pretty dialed in). Then that motor failed. I had a 1527 1500kv (note the kv is lower on this neu and Lehner rates their kv under load which would really have been over 1700kv if rated like a neu) so I put that motor in. I don't remember what it ran with the exact same prop, but it did not like the prop the Lehner did (different in tq and power band I suppose) so with swapping out a couple different props and some strut moving in one run session I had it at 85mph with run down packs. Then before I could tweak it more someone offered me a large amount of money for it, and it was gone. So even tho I didn't compare same props (like I said I really couldn't because the Lehner wouldn't pull as much pitch as the neu) I still ran them in the same boat and I think it was a fair comparison. I wholeheartedly believe the 1527 1640kv neu that's in my shocker (98mph on the same voltage as the mono) right now would easily match the speed of the Lehner. I actually intend on proving it because I have another one of the same hulls I'll build sooner or later. So my opinion is the huge difference you pay for a Lehner really isn't worth it to me....unless you have really deep pockets and just have to have them for bragging rights or exotic reasons. Also getting them warrantied is a pain in the rear because they are in Germany. That's a whole different story I don't want to get into and bore you anymore lol.

[pond skipper]

And that's the answer I was looking for, I have also heard the lehner motors are more efficient and easier on the esc than the neu motors because of them being a 6 pole motor, thanks for the clarification, I suspected it had more to do with the efficiency and construction quality but wanted to be certain.

thanks guys. looks like I may be sticking with neu motors in it for now, hopefully I can see triple digits out of it.

[kfxguy]

And that's the answer I was looking for, I have also heard the lehner motors are more efficient and easier on the esc than the neu motors because of them being a 6 pole motor, thanks for the clarification, I suspected it had more to do with the efficiency and construction quality but wanted to be certain.

thanks fluid.

My 2260 in my mono pulled more amps than the neu motor. Lehners are 2 pole not 6 pole.

[PROP]

I've got an F5B plane (hotliner) Enigma with a Neu 1509/1y with a gearbox swinging an 18"X19" prop. On 6S it draws around 165A. Granted I only use WOT for a few seconds at a time but it's remarkable that a motor that size (7.5oz) can take it. It's rated at 1500W surge. Mine does around 3800W. I use telemetry to keep an eye on temps and make sure that it stays below 200deg.
They're great motors.

[RaceMechaniX]

Honestly any of those motors will work depending on your goals. The 4-pole TP and Neu are more similar in set-up compared to the 2-pole LMT which will want different props. I will say TP has improved their quality over the last 2 years. They are an excellent compromise for the performance. Neu is a fairly stable motor and its set-up is well known. The LMT's will be the hardest to set-up unless you have experience with them. They like lower pitch ratios and a lot of RPM, ie you need to let them really wind up. The Neu and TP will probably work better at lower RPM ranges.

If you start with the larger Neu or TP, you can always switch to the LMT later. For the money, I would try the TP initially. Get the hull set-up and tuned and if you want to go faster invest in the Neu or LMT.

The controller you decide upon will be of equal importance. Also, finding controllers that work good in pairs is more difficult than you think.

The current world record in the Q cat class is held by Andreas Lehner using an HPR 99 with his LMT 1950 motors and MGM controllers at just under 128mph. I believe he has run faster in Europe but cannot recall the speed.

[iridebikes247]

In a high rpm twin cat I wouldn't waste my time with Neu, either TP or LMT. I think a SAW mono though Neu can really shine.

The twin will reach high speed even with smaller, low pitch props RPM is definitely your friend in this case. People are very divided over this "its gunna burn up, don't be cheap," I swore by TP for awhile but wasn't breaking 100, after roasting my first $300 esc I knew I didn't want another part failure.

Burning a 150$ motor who cares, but burning up a motor and nuking a $300 esc in the process thats changed things for me. Popping the hatch to a roasted motor and an esc thats cooked might have you kicking yourself down the road. If you can run twin seaking 180s I think they're 160$ on hobbyking for two, then thats easy to replace. Replacing an mgm or two...not as easy.

On the other hand I have some smaller boats running tp 4050 2390kv on 6s and would happily buy another pair....they're mated to $80 escs though. A few of the forum members have CONSISTENTLY reached high speed with "cheapo," parts and I've noticed people going back to TP.

That HPR you've got is probably the most efficient cat hull out there and 4050 TP 2390kv on 5-6s would have it screaming. If you're not trying to break 110 I would go TP. If shooting for 110+....LMT all the way.

Whatever you decide, drill the motor mounts for both. The newer TP 40 series has the same bolt pattern as LMT 19 series so thats good.

[keithbradley]

In terms of performance, the answer is pretty apparent. The fastest boats in the world run Lehner. Until that changes, it's going to be an uphill battle to argue that another motor has more potential. There is also a significant difference in design and weaknesses in each motor, as well as efficiency within a given RPM range and load.
HOWEVER, as Tyler stated, if you don't know how to properly use the motors, you're going to be disappointed, and you're not going to see an advantage in the motor you chose. I can't tell you how many people I've seen start threads or post about how Lehners aren't as good as TP/Neu/Castle/Etc. because they tried the same prop on both motors in the same hull and the Lehner wasn't any faster. If you have the proper size, kv, voltage, prop, hull, and trim, it's going to be hard to beat Lehner.

[pond skipper]

Holy cow, I wasn't expecting so many replies, all are very much so appreciated though! And I have no idea why I put that Lehner motors have 6 poles when I knew it was two, too much monster energy I suppose. I know both Lehner and neu are great motors and they have to be approached in different ways, I talked to Steve neu for quite a long while yesterday and he made the suggestion of doing two 1521 .75y motors which is around 2100kv I believe and 3500 watts, and running props like the new abc cleaver series with higher rake angles and pitch than the standard octura x4 series props and running a slightly lower rpm which doesn't really sound like a bad thing it's just a different method for achieving the same outcome. Does this sound right to you guys?

[kfxguy]

Holy cow, I wasn't expecting so many replies, all are very much so appreciated though! And I have no idea why I put that Lehner motors have 6 poles when I knew it was two, too much monster energy I suppose. I know both Lehner and neu are great motors and they have to be approached in different ways, I talked to Steve neu for quite a long while yesterday and he made the suggestion of doing two 1521 .75y motors which is around 2100kv I believe and 3500 watts, and running props like the new abc cleaver series with higher rake angles and pitch than the standard octura x4 series props and running a slightly lower rpm which doesn't really sound like a bad thing it's just a different method for achieving the same outcome. Does this sound right to you guys?

I think on 6s that setup would be as fast as you want it to be. A pair of 1715's or 1815's (abc) would haul with those motors. I've touched almost 100 (97.5) with a single drive, 1815 prop and less kv than that on 6s. A twin would be even faster I'd think.

[pond skipper]

I agree, anyone have a good starting point for cg for the HPR hulls for high speed? I know on my seaducer monos they like to be around 27.5-28% depending on water and wind conditions for all out speed but I know this cat will have a good bit more lift than they do so it will likely be slightly higher I'm thinking probably 30-32% or more possibly?